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 Post subject: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:37 am 
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2nd Gear
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So what are you time attack. lapping, racers using for brake fluid. Last time out I had a fade issue and was not related to mechanical issues. Looking for a higher quality fluid and where to get it.
Mal


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:26 pm 
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3rd Gear
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Ford Heavy Duty, works great and its cheap!


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:43 pm 
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We've got a lot of lappers on Ate Typ200, a 1L container is like $20ish.

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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:14 pm 
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3rd Gear
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Location: Kentville
Plus 1 for the Ford Heavy Duty. Goes in all my cars. Cheap, and I flush the systems regularly.

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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Castrol SRF, not cheap, never flush, one of the best brake fluids out there. In the end I don't think it cost more, as you don't use much of it. I hate the ford stuff. My life got a lot better when I stopped using it and started using SRF. Just my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:59 am 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
Castrol SRF, not cheap, never flush, one of the best brake fluids out there. In the end I don't think it cost more, as you don't use much of it. I hate the ford stuff. My life got a lot better when I stopped using it and started using SRF. Just my experience.

Can it be found for less than $115 per liter?


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:45 am 
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1 just got a litre for $65 usd at VIR. Price diff across the boarder seems high for some reason. I did just see it for $99 on a Canadian web site....


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:49 am 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
I hate the ford stuff. My life got a lot better when I stopped using it and started using SRF. Just my experience.


Can you elaborate why? i'm genuinely curious.

I've been using the $6 ford HD for a while on my cars but it always, always has a really bad pedal feel. Every car i've tried it on. Even if i take the MC off and bench bleed it, it'll feel like there's air in the lines. FWIW i've never had the ford fluid boil at AMP, it feels pretty consistent throughout a day of lapping.

I'd love to subscribe to the idea of not flushing brake fluid a couple times a year.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:13 pm 
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I honesty believe it's all about moisture. Our race cars are in Sambro Head, pretty much living in a fog bank. Our old shop was not heated, humid day, floor would be wet with moisture...pretty sure the ford brake fluid was sucking in all that moisture. SRF just does not seem to have that issue. It's good enough for F1 teams, good enough for me. May just be boiling point is so hi, little moisture still makes it superior to most. When I was working on t/a cars, we would change it only for street tracks, massive brake temps at 3 rivers, Denver, etc.

There are lots of other good ones out there, I've just never had to try them, SRF all the way. AMP is not a hard track on brakes, it's too bumpy to brake hard when u are on the limit (for race car brakes, with proper cooling). Risi uses Brembo fluid in the GTLM car.

Again, if you are going thru multiple cans of $30 stuff a year, and a $100 can will last 2 years or more, with no flushing, is it really more expensive?

Ford HD is from the stone ages!


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm 
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thanks, good info to know.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:35 pm 
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We've used Castrol GT-LMA (Now just castrol dot 4) in elvic all year without bleeding once. 2 hour practice, race school, and 4 race weekends in the books now. Brakes are still solid as hell. I think Joel also uses that in the del sol.

In my M3 I used superblue/typ200 and then RBF600. Had to do a tiny bleed after a lapping day or time attack, but generally 1L of fluid was enough for the year. I didn't find RBF600 was worth the premium over the typ200. When I stopped bringing the M3 to AMP I just switched to the "OEM Dot4 European" for autocross.

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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:44 am 
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m swann wrote:
So what are you time attack. lapping, racers using for brake fluid. Last time out I had a fade issue and was not related to mechanical issues. Looking for a higher quality fluid and where to get it.
Mal

If you're experiencing brake fade, it's your brake pads (not your fluid) that is causing the issue. Brake fade is caused by overheating of the brake pad, so you either need to run a pad that is rated for higher temperatures or you need to add some cooling ducts.

Brake fade is not the cause for a long or spongey brake pedal/lever. If you experience a spongey pedal/lever you’ve probably got air in your brake hydraulics or have boiled your brake fluid, in which case you are right to look for a higher quality fluid (or at least make sure it's fresh before you go to the track).

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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:48 am 
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Good clarification Scott Mc.....Mal, was it pad fade or spongy pedal?


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:52 am 
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Scott Mo, probably the same stuff, just charge more for the SRF and idiots like me buy it!

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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:53 am 
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should have been this pic. I will only use Duff dry, end of story!!!


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:43 pm 
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2nd Gear
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
Good clarification Scott Mc.....Mal, was it pad fade or spongy pedal?

always the same situation, go for the pedal and nothing until the very end of the stroke. brakes worked but not getting any feel or action until the very end of the stroke can be disconcerting. Only happens on asphalt use. Had this happen in three different cars. (all RX-7's of course) fluid changed before event and same brand and model of pads used in each case. Hawk "blue" Of course no problem on gravel.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:07 am 
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Does the issue happen on pavement right away, or only as heat builds? And does it pump up?

If it happens right away (with no heat), it has nothing to do with pads or fluid. Hawk blue are pretty good and should not fade, they are a racing pad.

If the pedal feels fine while not moving, then I think you have knock back of the pistons, or retraction of the pistons in the caliper. You can try knock back springs behind the pistons, pumping the brakes to build a firm pedal prior to the brake zone (a little is ok, doing it all the time is crazy! or vette had this issue with the smallest bit of heat in the caliper), or look at the seal design in the caliper - orings seals are very bad for piston retraction....can also be upright flex, or caliper bracket flex.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:40 am 
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2nd Gear
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This happens after a number of laps, so as heat builds up,
Normal pedal feel and braking until .....
no pedal, will not pump up , but there is braking very near the end of the stroke.
Thanks Leigh for the discussion. Will be looking at the hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:45 am 
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Scott Montgomerie wrote:
We've used Castrol GT-LMA (Now just castrol dot 4) in elvic all year without bleeding once. 2 hour practice, race school, and 4 race weekends in the books now. Brakes are still solid as hell. I think Joel also uses that in the del sol.


We use Castrol LMA also in my Miata, with the same good results. I bleed/flush a bit between races when time isn't an issue, but have never noticed a difference if I skip a turn.

Edit: Are any of the brake parts on your RX-7 similar to those used on early Miatas? The brakes on my race car have been great, just need basic maintenance between rounds, and new rotors every now and then. I'm also on Hawk Blues.


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 Post subject: Re: brake fluid question
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:02 am 
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I have had similar issues with my '11STi, having a soft peddle and long travel before braking occurred, happening with cold warm and hot braking. I changed to stainless steel flex hoses, different discs, OEM, slotted, drilled and slotted, added the brake master cylinder brace, Hawk Racing Pads for track, bleeding brakes in different order and tried a variety of fluids have been using Type 200 in both STi and Miata. I questioned the dealer and had them check as well. They all seemed to help a very small amount....sort of, then got hold of the shop manual and found this:
"On the model with brake assist mechanism, the following
phenomena occur when the brake pedal is
depressed. However, those are not malfunction but
the phenomena that occur when the brake assist
mechanism functions properly.
• Brake feel is soft when brake pedal is depressed
hard or quicker than usual."

As for the miata the peddle has always been rock hard and predictable even at 342,000kms


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