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 Post subject: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:38 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:00 am 
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Infield Hooligan
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I often wondered about that Robert....just how much information can a person take in when they feal they are "Flat out" ??? :?

Not judging anyone...just wondering.


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:16 am 
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Overdrive
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Well, for one that's from a satire site, but I expect Robert knew that.

As to the serious question, once you're comfortable with it the pace notes allow you to go faster than you would by sight alone. On rally stages you usually can't see over that crest or around that corner and there's often hundreds of KM of stages so you can't memorize it like you would a racetrack. Having that voice in your helmet that tells you the road does a slight left (L5) and there's a big rock on the outside (Keep L) allows you to go a lot faster over that crest than you would otherwise. So think of it as 'flat out +'.

Its like any other skill, you learn to use what's given to the best of your ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:33 am 
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Infield Hooligan
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...but really...look at those TOP Rally drivers, they concentrate so much that they stop blinking, forget their mouth is open and start drooling!!

I understand the element of the co driver but I always wondered how much the driver was actually listening and aware of what they are saying...?


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:39 am 
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Overdrive
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100%. Sebastien Loeb himself went off the road earlier this season because his co-driver miss called a single note. At that level the driver is driving with about 20% vision and 80% notes, maybe even more notes.

In most grassroots rally of course the ratio is much different and depends wildly on the team. I'm sure there's a lot of rally drivers who are doing 80% visual 20% notes, but the truly fast ones are the ones that can work the ratio the other way. (As well as having the car control skills to translate that information into staying on the road, of course)

I know with my driving its been very much a challenge to visualize what I'm hearing even though I can't see it, but that's part of the great appeal of rallying to me and every time I'm in the left seat that's what I'm working on improving.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Jari-Matti Latvala is probably the best example of why pacenotes are important. He's quick, blindingly quick, however in...2009 I believe, when he was crashing left, right and center (moreso than this year) he admitted that he frequently got tunnel vision and just focused on the road and stopped hearing the pacenotes, resulting in his crashes.

As a result, Miikka Anttila now gives him the pacenotes in a much more aggressive tone and that has been the same since then.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Infield Hooligan
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Drivers "always" blame the co-drivers for messing up the notes...even when the driver is not paying attention to the notes !!

I understand the perceived importance of a co-driver with regards to driving fast..."it's like a window into the future for the driver" but only if they are listening.


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Absolutely! Hence why J-M flies off the road so often. Because he doesn't listen.

Good empirical evidence that co-driver + listening = no ditch

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:58 pm 
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...ok ... as a driver in this discussion ... a "proper" note called at the "correct" time will in fact make me go faster ... there is a huge skill in note "timing" from a co drivers perspective ... not too far in advance of the corner that it can be forgot or too late that the correct braking point is missed ... how ever that skill of MAKING the note requires the foresight to know EXACTLY where the car will be at 3 plus times the recce speed ... that skill is whats makes the fast guys faster ... I hear EVERYTHING that is be called ... but there are times when I "zone" out if I make a driving mistake ...I forget what was coming and need it repeated ... as you progress, your notes simply get more and more descriptive allowing you to go faster and faster how ever that margin for error gets waaaaay smaller ... full commitment = no room for error :)


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Kevin Doubleday wrote:
I understand the perceived importance of a co-driver with regards to driving fast..."it's like a window into the future for the driver" but only if they are listening.


I'm not sure why you're calling this a perception? Do you really think that thousands of rally teams out there are just carrying extra noisy ballast because they're lonely? If you don't like the idea of co-drivers NASA is running a 'Rally Solo' program in a few events.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Gordon S. wrote:
Kevin Doubleday wrote:
I understand the perceived importance of a co-driver with regards to driving fast..."it's like a window into the future for the driver" but only if they are listening.


I'm not sure why you're calling this a perception? Do you really think that thousands of rally teams out there are just carrying extra noisy ballast because they're lonely? If you don't like the idea of co-drivers NASA is running a 'Rally Solo' program in a few events.



Gordon...if it wasn't required by the rules to have a co-driver in the other seat they probably would have removed them for weight savings by now!!

Really?...now that would be a great comparison for the equation...is it on the same roads as the co-driver cars??


Steve...Really!...you hear and understand everything being communicated to you by the co-driver even if you don't make a driving error...fully committed?


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Okay, for my own sanity I'll continue to believe you're trolling at this point. Good day to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Gordon S. wrote:
Okay, for my own sanity I'll continue to believe you're trolling at this point. Good day to you.


Damn...I must be losing my touch...I only got a low-grade "piss-off" from you Gord...oh well. :roll:

Thank you for taking the time to defend your opinion!

I still want to see that race with out the co-drivers just to get a full appreciation for their abilities in the car.


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:59 pm 
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When we went from Blind to Recce Notes in 2011 I had my doubts. I was unsure of how much of a difference it would make, how much I would trust my codriver.

It worked out to 5sec per km of stage.

'Nuff said.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:50 am 
I just posted it, I didn't write it :lol:

I do think there may be a huge difference in what the driver hears or listens to, depending on what driver we are talking about. I am sure if done correctly it has to help.

I didn't really think the part about the homeless guy was true, it kinda ruined the story in fact.

Rock on Dudes!


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Kevin Doubleday wrote:
Steve...Really!...you hear and understand everything being communicated to you by the co-driver even if you don't make a driving error...fully committed?


yep ... everything ... thing is ... you have never seen me at 100 %... I am running around 80% to 90% when we run here ... I was at 100% at Baie in June ... and 1 ... I repeat 1 miss timed note at 100% ment a hard trip into the woods in 4th gear :oops: ... my notes are very basic compared to the top guys ... we had a chance to witness this at Baie this year when Crazy Leo and Carl has a recce car failure and I let them use my Forester (Leo driving Carl passenger seat Angela and I sat in the back seats ) to finish recce ... their style and AMOUNT of description in noting a corner was incredible compared to my "R4" LOL ... but... they are waaaay faster and car placement becomes crucial on every corner ... for me in comparison speeds are generally slower so car placement does not play as huge a factor ...their 100 % and my 100% have the same result though ... one wrong or miss timed note and its an off period... I simply can not process that MUCH information yet ... I was getting mixed up listening to Carl at recce speeds (60 kph ...give or take ;) )
here is 1 mistake in a single note at speed at 100% from Leo and Carl...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62JSUNdI ... ults_video

you judge for yourself ... without the notes "your" speed would be 1/2 to 2/3 of that MAX ... with notes "my" speed is about 3/4 of his ... so its easy to see how proper notes and a co driver make a TON of difference...

Quig


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:37 pm 
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...ooops....got caught up watching the Robert Kubica rally video....good to see him "working" on his comeback!!

I see what you mean Steve...bads notes!

Question...with todays technologies could they not use the onboard mileage computers and/or GPS to run
a solid state drive that plays back a pre-recorded sound track of pace notes into the drivers headset at pre determined spots on the course???

Just an idea !!


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:34 pm 
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I don't rally, but iI think that the human element is important. Diferent teams may use different methods to make up their notes. The ability to create better notes would be an advantage to the team, so giving everyone some kind of gps thing... well its sort of like trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Reacting to changing conditions and unexpected things is something a computer cannot do.

Similarly, some have questioned the point of the lights in F1, especially after last weekend's events. The reality is that technology is not always a replacement for something like this, and having the human element is very important.

I mean, what happens if the gps note system packs it in?


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Kevin Doubleday wrote:
Question...with todays technologies could they not use the onboard mileage computers and/or GPS to run
a solid state drive that plays back a pre-recorded sound track of pace notes into the drivers headset at pre determined spots on the course???

Just an idea !!




http://jemba.se/inertia

virtual co driver!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... L5Wva5ju0#!



used at Pikes Peak with a computer voice playback and speed sensing, gps location technology so its long since done ... every one tested the technology and stayed with the human element ;) co drivers really do have a needed job ... other than balancing the car on big jumps :P


Last edited by Steve Quigley on Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Co-drivers do a whole lot more than just parroting out notes and not losing their place. Good ones (And good teams) can control the speed of the car as much as the driver does.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:37 pm 
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And they are also an important part of the between stage mechanic team to make the car survive between stage a service. See Daniel Elena leaning out of a car window when their Citroen only had three wheels! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:55 pm 
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There's also a couple codrivers that have sat on the engine to modulate the throttle after the cable snapped.

It may only be virtual experience, but I know Richard Burns Rally on the longer ~10km stages was near impossible without the pace notes. You just can't remember every corner with enough confidence to take it at speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:58 pm 
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Food for thought......
When Kevin and I were discussing who would drive on the longer events (where only one of us was able to drive), we decided I would drive and he would navigate. Not because I am a better driver ( were actually very equal), but because he is a better navigator, wich in turn makes us faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:30 pm 
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http://www.auto123.com/en/news/rally-ro ... tid=150464

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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Hmmm...don't look like your listening....could be the camera though !! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Co-Drivers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:45 am 
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Not sure why I'm bringing this particular thread back from the dead, but here's a good read:

http://jalopnik.com/5973232/the-secret- ... map=%5B%5D

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